Wednesday, August 24, 2005

A Note for our Visitors

Georgia pointed out to me that you have not been able to make comments if you are not 'registered'. I've remedied this by changing a preset on the site. So, go to it! I'm eager to read what you have to say!
Fr. Peter

The Teutonic Knights, Part II

CATHOLIC READERS MEETING AUGUST 14,2005
THE TEUTONIC KNIGHTS, continued
Present: Susan (guest) Mary B., Mark, Br. Brendan, Imelda, Sally, Peter O., Br. Peter,
Regina, Georgia
Br. Peter- Would anyone like to start the discussion?
G- I was amazed at the way this hatred of the Teutonic Knights remained so strong, even in the intervening years…this book was written 500 years or so after the events we read about, right? Were these knights any worse than anyone else at the time?
P- They thought of themselves as better than anyone else, like Liechtenstein, who was "above" even talking to the Poles.
G-would the history be any different if a Teutonic Knight had written it?
R-There was great suffering of the Polish people at the hands of the Teutonic Knights, who wanted more land.
MB-The Frenchman…
R- LaRoche..
MB-he was under the impression that Poles were a backward people, but when he came there, he was shocked at how civilized they were.
Im- Underlying this is propaganda about the T.K.s ; the West sided with them
R- They expanded out of the original stronghold in Mazovia. There is a museum in Malbork that shows the luxurious life of the Knights. They were trained how to lie to Poles and to their own Grand Master.
B- They still exist today.
Sn-What’s their purpose?
P-They’re known as Knights Templar…
B- These are now located in Germany and in Vienna
P- ..have no Grand Master now- they were active until WW1 when the Grand Master died. You can check it our with a Google search…
Im What was their origin? the book shows how evil can creep into what started as good.
MB They came out of the Crusades
B- other orders started then…
BP- like the Knights of Malta who started as those caring for sick pilgrims…
Sn- a hospitalier organization… were the Teutonic Knights monks? Priests?
BP- they were monks, and lived under the condition where clerics could fight with clubs, no swords
Sn- W as there evidence of in-fighting in this order?
Im- I think there was a defined hierarchy which was honored, but there also was deception- like the lying to the Grand Master.
R- There was terrible cruelty, as seen in the torture of Jurand.
Sl- Is this related at all to Quo Vadis?
R- No, (only same author)- that was about the first Christians
M- This was pretty much a story of the crusades…the aftermath of them…
B- If we were to read what the Muslims wrote about the crusades it would be very different..
G- So history depends on who writes it…?
P- I think in today’s cultures Poles are seen as a backward people- not nearly as modern as most Western cultures. (Sl and BP agree)
Sn- I’d like to recommend a movie on the Poles called "Zelary"..
MB- The entymology of the word slave comes from Slav – the reduction to slavery of many of the Slavic people in central Europe …
(Peter and Mary leave for funeral)
Im- I’d like to hear about the crusades and their aftermath-were they good, or a treachery?
G- One of the things Br. Peter mentioned last month was how a war affects the men who fight in it- they come home and don’t fit in…..
Im- Why did the crusades happen?
B- The Holy Lands had been overrun by the Muslims and they were keeping the Christians from going on pilgrimage there…either killing them, or making them slaves. The crusades wanted to make it safe for these pilgrims to travel to the holy places. If the Muslims wrote about this period they’d paint the crusades as an unjust attack by Christians.
Im-Is this what’s going on today in the holy land?
B- No..
Sn- Is it more like kill or convert?
B-There’s a similarity in that there is a religious fervor behind it…
Im- The more one knows about history the more it helps us to understand contemporary intensity of terrorism.
G- Did the crusaders actually make a safe place for pilgrims?
B- Yes- like Baghdad today… We don’t have the intensity of religious faith in the West today…but it’s still present with Islam.
Sl- All this is done because of men running the world- there’s not enough female influence…not tender thoughts about what other people believe…
Sn- To get back to the book…to train men for war has to compromise their religious identity.
B- Not so much just the problem of men, but of politics…the problem includes nationalism
[Some discussion here about nationalism in Europe – how it was unknown during the Roman Empire, but after that empire fell, nationalism developed and became very intense, the cause of wars, and how it is trying to come together again in the E.U.]
G- I’d like to say one more thing that impressed me in the book…it was the chapter where Jurand decided to go by himself and rescue his daughter [ch.32]. This was such good writing..such a development of his character- a change, really…we had known him as somewhat of a tyrant and in this trip he makes into Teutonic Knight territory, he becomes humble, and gives over his life for the sake of ..love, for his daughter…it was very moving.
Im- I totally agree, it was very beautiful.
BP We have to decide how much we’re going to read for next month- do we need two more months to finish it? (There’s a big range of numbers of pages already read by participants!) We’ll play it by ear next time.